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Tinu Moorhsum
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2011.11.01 10:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Also known as the pincer movement... This is a military tactic that has been employed with success since ancient times.... perhaps the most notable example of which was at the battle of Cannae in 216 BC where Hannibal entrapped and killed IIRC something on the order of 85000 Roman soldiers in one day. This is still considered, after all these years, one of the most stunning military victories of all time.
Obviously such a manoeuvre is difficult to execute in an eve online context because fleets are able to turn an manoeuvre in ways in which the Romans were not..... never the less, a modified version of this tactic is still possible in our little online universe.
In order to execute such a move, one needs to build multiple levels of "walls" in which the enemy is unable to advance but also unable to retreat.
The clearest example can be illustrated by something that I experienced myself several years ago. I was going ratting and jumped through a gate in a battleship.... on the other side, a small force was waiting for me. I held my cloak and let my ship recharge as much as I could and then burned back to the gate and jumped through...under heavy fire. at that point, a small force was waiting for me on that side too.... I waited, went back to the gate and jumped through... each time waiting as long as possible for my ship to recharge before uncloaking.
I went back and forth through that gate several times but each time more weakened than the time before and, of course, the end was inevitable. I blew up. That's a double invelopment on a small scale on eve online terms.... cut off the way ahead and cut off the way back.
This kind of thing can be done on a larger scale as well. In a more recent example, a fleet I was in was in-system and fighting a significant SC force. Unable to hurt them we decided to retreat but the exit gate was blocked on both sides by smaller fleets of conventional ships. On each side the fleet was about 2/3 of our size (of course people in the fleet were saying, "let's fight them" ) but aggressing would have opened the door for the "waiting" side to jump through and then they would have been larger and better armed than we were and we would be unable to retreat.....
This is double invelopment a la EVE online and one of the core skills expected of even the most inexperienced of FC's. In Hannibal's time it was genious. In our time it's a given that you can do this. For budding FC's I hope you can learn something from this.
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Tinu Moorhsum
Aliastra Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2011.11.01 15:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:Wait..what?
Few if any FC's in this game actually understand military tactics. Some intuitively do the right thing and some accidentally do the right thing despite their mistakes. I thought it might be interesting to post something about an actual tactic that could get people thinking and talking about it.....
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Tinu Moorhsum
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.11.01 18:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
KFenn wrote:The biggest problem is with warp. Would Hannibal have successfully been able to pull that off if the Romans had the ability to suddenly start running hundreds of miles an hour whilst being invulnerable to all and any damage? No sir, I don't think he could have.
Of course not. That's why I was saying that the tactic needed to be adapted to this context. A classic dual envelopment the way Hannibal excuted it is, of course, impossible in EVE. but some of the elements...the manner of thinking...can still be applied.
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Tinu Moorhsum
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.11.01 18:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:We call that having a backstop.
None of your armchair general crap here plx.
LOL
Just kicking around some ideas. If you have anything valuable to add to this thread then don't be afraid to speak up. As it is, you've only convinced us that you're able to be cynical but unable to actually discuss the topic at hand.
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Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
5
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Posted - 2011.11.22 12:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Notice no Raiden. posting on this thread. They should try to understand tactics better before they jumped balls-deep into battle with us yesterday.
We caught them in a dual envelopment last night and killed 783 of them, winning the fight in their home system even though they out numbered us by 100 and had dozens of super-caps on the field to our 11.
Some of you have laughed at this thread (and at me) but understanding tactics *does* help win fights.
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Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
5
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Posted - 2011.11.22 13:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Desudes wrote:Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Notice no Raiden. posting on this thread. They should try to understand tactics better before they jumped balls-deep into battle with us yesterday.
We caught them in a dual envelopment last night and killed 783 of them, winning the fight in their home system even though they out numbered us by 100 and had dozens of super-caps on the field to our 11.
Some of you have laughed at this thread (and at me) but understanding tactics *does* help win fights.
T- Laughing at you because everything you're saying can be filed under "**** we already know"
LOL
Were you there? Did you recognise the dual envolopment tactic when it happened? Did you understand why your FC was giving the commands he did? Did you hear the "click" when the pincer closed? Did you experience the enemy pressing the "panic" button?
Or were you sitting in Jita asking people to send you isk so you could double it?
Personally, I think the right to critique what happens in EVE's biggest battles should be backed up by evidence of experience.
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Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
5
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Posted - 2011.11.23 11:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:
I'm all ears for a brilliant tactical play but so far all you said is the name of a real life military maneuver without saying anything to indicate it is either A) new, or B) difficult to pull off
Well... I was trying to draw some parallels to stimulate discussion but I think I'm beaten. :)
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Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
6
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Posted - 2011.11.27 16:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Barlat wrote:
I think that if you had asked people to describe tactics in their own words that they find useful or impressive, you would have fostered more discussion.
Speaking of that, I'd like to know what tactics people DO think are useful and/or impressive, and how they have used them or had them used against them, but that might be for another thread.
Agreed. I failed to recognise that some people see posting on the forums as yet another form of PVP. The basic thing I was trying to accomplish here got derailed by my poor initial delivery and subsequent barrage of smack. It's ok, I learn quickly but I'm not going to play the smack game.
To answer your question, the one (obvious) thing that works wonders in EVE is tactical surprise. You see it all over the place. Most people call it "baiting".
Baiting and hot-dropping is probably the most common tactic you can employ to get easy wins. One example of this would be to use a "bait fleet" that's big enough to get a response but to split your fleet up with some on bait patrol and the rest formed up on some kind of bridge where they aren't being scouted. Black ops ships are good for this but you see a lot of it being done from titan bridges too because only cloaky ships can go through a black ops bridge. The basic idea, is get a fight, make sure the enemy engages your bait fleet, throw up a cyno and clobber them when your fleet suddenly swells in size. Some alliances use this tactic so often that you can be reasonably sure that just about any roaming fleet of theirs you encounter is a bait fleet. The trick then is to have good intel about what they have formed up so when they drop you, you can counter-drop and surprise them back :)
Another variation of this, of course is to have the main part of your fleet wait outside a gate or on the other side of a jump bridge until the fight starts.
The problem with most traditional tactics in EVE is that there is no real terrain. Gates are the only choke points where you can really force a fleet to choose between "go forward" or "go back" (or logoffski, which, fortunately they're fixing)
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